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  • I just don’t understand . . .

    2010 - 11.30

    I just don’t understand why the same people who support smaller and less intrusive government, and insist that government stay out of our lives and let people choose what is right for them are often the same people who . . .

    Think it’s perfectly fine that the government determine which consenting adult I am allowed or not allowed to have an intimate relationship with.

    Think it’s perfectly fine the government determine whose name I am allowed or not allowed to put on a state sponsored legal document called a marriage license.

    Think it’s perfectly fine health insurance laws apply to their family but not my family.

    Consistently complain that gays are promiscuous trash, yet do everything in their power to ensure we cannot get married, settle down and adopt some kids.

    Think it’s perfectly fine there are two sets of taxation laws: one for straight couples and one for gay couples.

    And who insist that homosexuality is a choice, and that lifestyle choices should not be protected by law; yet have no problem that the most incredibly obvious  lifestyle choice—–freedom of religion—– is strictly protected by law.

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    23 Responses to “I just don’t understand . . .”

    1. DaCar says:

      In all lovingness let me explain. Marriage was made by God, not by the government. Government just recognizes marriage. I have no problem if homosexuals instituted their own form of commitment and then petitioned the government to recognize it in the same way as marriage. What I do have a problem with is government thinking it has the power to decide what marriage is defined as. I also think the health laws should be applied equally. You are not prevented by law to live as a homosexual, no one is going to come arrest you and your partner so I think you are pretty much protected there.

      • Avatar of Mac Mac says:

        Oh, I went back and forth for a couple weeks while writing this if I should complain that there are still anti-sodomy laws on the books in a number of municipalities. (states too? I don’t know) I hate the word sodomy and really don’t want to discuss that here. This is a family forum after all.

      • Avatar of Katydid Katydid says:

        Marriage may well have been made by God, I don’t really know.
        What I do know is that I can’t get married unless I go to the court house and get a legal government document giving me permission to commit marriage.
        Then, I still can’t actually get married unless the person that I choose to do the ceremony is actually licensed by the government to perform said marriage.

        I don’t have to have any kind of a religious ceremony to get ‘married’, I can go right to the court house and have it done by a judge that is state sanctioned to perform the ceremony.
        And if I want to get out of said marriage, it again requires going to the court house, seeing a judge and getting the legal paperwork taken care of. There’s no religious entity that can get me out of it.
        I can, if I choose, leave the church and God totally out of the whole marriage thing but, I can’t leave the government out of it.
        So to me, marriage looks pretty much like a government controlled endeavor, not a religious one.

    2. Mac,
      I’m new to this forum…and so I’m not sure how long you have been at this campaign of yours…or what you are trying to achieve with it.
      My guess is that you are trying to show us all how normal and comfortable we all should feel about your lifestyle choice.
      I’d bet I’d never be able to pick you out of a crowd…or even have a guess of who you are..or your sexual predelections.
      Why is that so important to you…that I and others like me know all about your choices?…so we can offer up our acceptance or approval?
      I’d bet you have a lot of other things about yourself that are more important than that of your private behavior..like how community minded you are…or patriotic, or productive member of society.
      Do you want to be more equal than others? Is acceptance the most important thing that defines you?
      There are a lot of things in my life that if I put them out there for everyone to vote on…there would not be any understanding, approval, sympathy or acceptance. I can live with that, and its not obsessing me that not everybody is going to approve.
      So live your life knowing that sexuality is just one facet of a human’s makeup…not the one thing defines you as a person…unless you want it to be.

      • Avatar of Breezy Belle Breezy Belle says:

        Arnold – this comment just seems like you are saying; “hey, I don’t care if you’re gay… as long as you keep it to yourself”. Maybe that’s not your intent – I do not want to presume. But it felt like you were just saying that homosexuality isn’t an issue for you… until someone around you speaks out loud about it.

        How do societal views change and grow if there’s no discussion about it? At one time, our society thought it perfectly acceptable, and even desireable, to keep slaves… until one day, one person spoke up… and then more people spoke up… At one time our society happily classified women as second-class citizens who did not share the same rights granted to their male counterparts… right up until the discussion started…

        It’s the discussion that leads to the changes. To stop talking about issues of concern is to shut down all hope of change.

    3. Avatar of Click Red Click Red says:

      Makes it feel impossible to debate someone that isn’t even consistent it their core beliefs.

    4. It’s pretty F’ed up. It comes down to centuries of religious conditioning.

    5. Avatar of Mac Mac says:

      Arnold & DaCar–

      Thanks for posting some comments. I think I can respond to you both at once. I’m here for a couple reasons: it bothers me that so many young men and women have decided that being dead is better than being gay. It may be at the moment, but it can get better. I’m trying to show the kids that it can turn out okay if you hang in there. My life and that of my partner may have been easier had we had some type of individual to observe or identify with.

      The other thing I’m trying to do is show the parents or neighbors of a gay person that we’re really pretty much like everyone else, “only with cleaner cars and greener lawns”. (I’ve gotta copyright that phrase.) The media often portrays gays as silly cartoon characters, which many of us are for sure, but there’s not too many plain old guys other than the couple on “Brother’s and Sisters”.

      Being gay defines me on TGA, but you are correct in that this is a single facet of a very complex life. I just stick to this topic ’cause no one wants to hear about my job at the factory or which events I attend or support. Unless I can make some stupid wisecrack. I think people take themselves waaay too seriously, and I love self-deprecating humor.

      Plus, I’m here ’cause I’m vain and shallow and LOVE LOVE LOVE to talk about myself!!! (see what I mean?)

      Mac

      One thing I learned here is that when we talk about gay marriage, we’re really talking about two different things: the gays want the legal protection the government license provides. I do not know anyone who’s interested in forcing a congregation to ‘marry’ them. If there was an opportunity to purchase the license that gives that protection, we could call it Fred Ziffel for all anyone cares, and let the straight people keep the term ‘marriage’.

    6. Avatar of default user default user says:

      “My guess is that you are trying to show us all how normal and comfortable we all should feel about your lifestyle choice.”

      Let’s be clear. Which lifestyle choice was made exactly? To drive a convertible? To roll all your R’s?
      Is being colorblind a lifestyle choice too? What about being left-handed? Right eye dominant?

    7. Mac wrote:
      “And who insist that homosexuality is a choice, and that lifestyle choices should not be protected by law; yet have no problem that the most incredibly obvious lifestyle choice—–freedom of religion—– is strictly protected by law.”

      Default user :
      “Let’s be clear. Which lifestyle choice was made exactly?”

      Maybe you should pose the question to “Mac” first?
      He uses the term “lifestyle” a couple of times in the above paragraph.

      He must have had another chosen “lifestyle” once…being that he had a wife and children at one time in his life.
      Was that not a chosen “lifestyle” too?

    8. Avatar of Mac Mac says:

      Not quite sure I understand the question here.

    9. Quite frankly….I don’t agree with the term ‘lifestyle’. It makes me think AZ has labeled gay/lesbians as though it is simply a Choice….like living rural or urban. There is no Choice when being gay/lesbian is the very Core of the individual and not ‘styled’ as their ‘life’.
      I don’t understand why some people can not get past defining being Gay or Lesbian as a ‘lifetyle’.
      Now, going through life as an jerk, a kind person, a giving person, a selfish person….THOSE are Lifestyle Choices….in my mind anyway.

    10. Avatar of b.a.c. says:

      Yeah, I don’t remember making any conscious ‘choice’ to be straight, just happened that way.
      Fortunately, some of us can turn being a jerk on or off. :-)

    11. On the surface it’s sorta hard to discern what exactly what the homosexual cheerleaders posters motivations are…I’ll just try and disect it down….if I’m wrong..I’m sure you will set me “straight”…er..um..right.
      In a nutshell…..Nobody,including Laws, government or religious institutions should tell anybody how to govern their lives is the prevailing attitude.
      Mac wanted a wife and kids once…and now he wants a car and a man.
      What if he changes his mind again..and wants to be a polygamist, or have a “group marriage”
      How does our system of laws accomodate every individuals desire to have absolute freedom and fairness, but still be fair to all of the rest of the goverened?
      Is there such a thing as the “greater good”? as it applies to the whole of society?
      As far as religious denominations not allowing absolute individual freedom of choice?
      Can’t gain acceptance for whatever you want?
      Don’t join them, start your own.

      • Avatar of Mac Mac says:

        If there were millions of people interested in having equal protection under the law for polygamist relationships, can you imagine the national debate we would have?!?! I’m sure we’d find a way to figure it out and have lots of blog discussion over it.

        This isn’t about Mac, and what Mac wants, it’s about all the gay people in the United States having equal protection under the law.

        No one has ever been able to explain to me how that harms them, their marriage or their family. I maintain that if as a society we want to protect marriage, make divorce illegal.

        Problem solved.

    12. Avatar of default user default user says:

      “I maintain that if as a society we want to protect marriage, make divorce illegal.”

      That might make it so married people don’t divorce, but it won’t really change anything except create a situation where spousal violence is more likely to occur.

      • Avatar of Mac Mac says:

        Actually, I think that if our society has agreed to legislate who can enter into a contract that provides the legal protection afforded by a marriage license, why cannot we also legislate who cannot break that contract?

        This is a super way to get people to reflect on how they would feel if their right to decide whom to spend their lives with was decided by others.

        Plus, the fundies should all climb on board with this—since marriage is sanctified by God, who is man to decide that bond can be broken?

    13. Avatar of skibum says:

      I have been reading and re-reading this and something is not clear to me. Do gays want to be married in Christian Churches or do they just want to have the same legal “rights” e.g. Civil Unions as married people? I guess I’m asking if it’s a Religious thing or a legal thing.

    14. Avatar of Mac Mac says:

      To the best of my knowledge, it’s a legal thing. Neither Ricky or I have ever in our lifetimes met anyone who has not been able to have the religious ceremony they wanted to acknowledge their union. Again, I’m speaking for our circle of friends . . . the reason we get annoyed/angry is the majority of the arguments against gay ‘marriage’ are based on individual religious beliefs being forced on people who do not share those beliefs. Their forcing their beliefs on all of society has very serious legal consequences. Consequences which are devastating to us, yet have absolutely no effect on them either way. I just don’t understand. . .

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